Dart Den

No underground exists in the dart frog hobby. The only people that ever produced hybrids are Troy, Jelly, Swirly, and Washers. The only frog species in the US are the ones available on the forums. No one keeps anything not available thru forum members.

Now, are those 17 frogs raised in a 5 gallon bucket fat and healthy? If so, what's it matter. It used to be 2.5 gallons per frog, and they strived and bred. Now we are up to 5 gallons per frog because of lost space to backgrounds and other hardscape. The only set rule for anything is "what works".

scott_r Wrote:No underground exists in the dart frog hobby. The only people that ever produced hybrids are Troy, Jelly, Swirly, and Washers. The only frog species in the US are the ones available on the forums. No one keeps anything not available thru forum members.

Now, are those 17 frogs raised in a 5 gallon bucket fat and healthy? If so, what's it matter. It used to be 2.5 gallons per frog, and they strived and bred. Now we are up to 5 gallons per frog because of lost space to backgrounds and other hardscape. The only set rule for anything is "what works".

I would bet there is more than just those names.


Frogs have also been known to lay eggs while being shipped in deli containers. Some would argue that works, I wouldn't.

Funny thing, I don't ever recall you saying "it works". Why now?
Can I not say bigger is better?
Or that 18 tincs in a 42 gallon is not a good idea? I don't ever recall you giving advice that would lead someone to that opinion.

scott_r Wrote:No underground exists in the dart frog hobby. The only people that ever produced hybrids are Troy, Jelly, Swirly, and Washers. The only frog species in the US are the ones available on the forums. No one keeps anything not available thru forum members.

Now, are those 17 frogs raised in a 5 gallon bucket fat and healthy? If so, what's it matter. It used to be 2.5 gallons per frog, and they strived and bred. Now we are up to 5 gallons per frog because of lost space to backgrounds and other hardscape. The only set rule for anything is "what works".

This is obviously a joke....right?

Casper,
You will never see me give that advice because that is just beyond stupid. I know damn well that with that many frogs in such a size, there are stress issues, so they are NOT healthy. However, everyone always focuses on the size of the enclosure. One person could set up a 200 gallon where those 17 frogs would thrive. Another may have to build a 300 gallon to acheive the same results. It is all about what works not a rule of tank size.

Ok Casper now that I have the time to answer you.

While I often comment on people's rights to do as they wish, That in no way means I support or agree with it. I have been amazed by dart frogs for almost 30 years, and am just as amazed today as I was at any point. I was fortunate enough to keep several species when they were around, that most people will never see, and I do not take that for granted. However, thru all of that, my favorite has always been the little FG Dwarf Cobalts. The colors are amazing. And these little guys is why I view hybrids as a waste of time. There are so many truly amazing different color patterns already, why would anyone need anything more? I have only seen one hybrid frog that I thought was neat, and I will never say what it was because that would lead to people trying it. Most hybrids have muted colors and are plain looking.
Now, as to the earlier comment. Because of my long term admiration of these frogs, Yes I do believe go big or go home. Screw the rules. Purely satisfying the minimums is an injustice to the frogs. But just because it is a large tank doesn't mean that it works. The most important thing is that the needs of the frogs are met and they are healthy. Not so much the actual size of the tank.
I have seen many build threads like...I got a 150 gallon tank, and I am gonna put this huge stump over here, and a big rock face waterfall over here, and a pond over there. And I am thinking "Ok, you should of just bought a 29 gallon it will have more useable space." For a pair, a 29 may actually work better.

I will not participate in the euthanizing portion of this thread. Hope I cleared up my view.
Troy, yeah it was.

Philsuma Wrote:The 'Hybrid Underground'...dude come on! That's just ridiculous. Anyone that's been in the hobby for 3 plus years knows there is no such thing. You MAY get an odd PM or two and that's about it.

I figured you would pull something out of the post you could put your spin on. Where did you quote the "hybrid underground" from? The underground only meant lurkers that do not post because it takes enjoyment out of their hobby experience.

But I can at least shed some light on how many "odd PM's" I get. Over the past two years I have received 11 emails/pm's containing pictures of hybrids and 3 others that did not contain pictures. So, there are at least me and 11 - 14 others that I can confirm own hybrids. Most that contact me simply want information on mixed setups. And no it is not a huge amount of people but they are out there. I typically get 1 or 2 questions per month on average.

I just think that honesty is what will save/protect your pure lineage of frogs.

uh...you said it yourself...'Underground". So NATURALLY we must assume that you mean the 'vast hybrid underground'. No spin here...embrace it. Are you now suddenly squeamish about your mixed frogs ?

The amount of interest you receive is still considered 'tiny' by our hobby numbers. Interest in creating hybrid frogs is very very low. I sincerely bet that it WILL be the direct downfall of the wascher experiment. The only reason they are still around is that they are massively cutting cost by being a home business.

I doubt that. They are still selling pure bred frogs as well as their frankenstein frogs. So they will appeal to alot of people. Will people on the forums buy from them? Probably not openly admitted, but as you just said, they cut prices. I would get ready to see prices drop on the common stuff to around $20.
I think Harrington buying from Taron is a fine example of their future sucess.

Philsuma Wrote:uh...you said it yourself...'Underground". So NATURALLY we must assume that you mean the 'vast hybrid underground'. No spin here...embrace it. Are you now suddenly squeamish about your mixed frogs ?

The amount of interest you receive is still considered 'tiny' by our hobby numbers. Interest in creating hybrid frogs is very very low. I sincerely bet that it WILL be the direct downfall of the wascher experiment. The only reason they are still around is that they are massively cutting cost by being a home business.

Wow!! The spin grows. Your jump to 'vast hybrid underground' is a spin on the truth/reality. I commented on your comment "the majority of people don't post on forums because they are lazy." My reference to "underground" referenced the lurkers and why they do not post. I have embraced my hybrids and have never had them underground. They have been in the spotlight from day one. I have had members over to my house and have had an open invitation to both you and Rich for years. I've answered every question asked, have posted pictures, and have been truthful from the beginning.

It's not a 'spin'...I'm trying to inject a little levity and you KNOW that. Everyone knows there is no such thing as 'vast' or even 'lots' of hobbyists creating mixed species. There jus' ain't.

And again, you are more than welcome to post ANYTHING you want here on DD -pics, info , experience ect. Just know that it's a hot button topic and one of the more heated one's. You new 2.0 enclosure and inhabitants in your house are fine by me. I've seen the thread and pics.

scott_r Wrote:... get ready to see prices drop on the common stuff to around $20.
I think Harrington buying from Taron is a fine example of their future sucess.

Apples, meet oranges...
@ $20 a sellable frog, someone is taking a loss at the end of the year, and that can not last long.
Harrington is buying EU frogs or frogs straight from the jungle and they are far from $20. He will buy from anyone with a frog he wants because his moral compass is non-existent .

With thousands upon thousands of froggers int the U.S. today, there are bound to be a decent number of people who are not happy with the hundreds of locales , colors, patterns , sizes and shapes we all have available. I don't 'get it' and think much is due to lack of compression and education surrounding the hobby. But no, the simple creation of a hybrid does not make the sky come crashing down.
What does make my own personal sky come crashing down is the understanding that someone, sometime will be cleaning up the messes of these people who not only buy or create hybrids but also either exercise fickle options and place the mixes back into a hobby they are fleeing.
I also condemn zoos, universities, aquariums and the like which claim to educate and draw people into the hobby, while what is really happening is they are teaching the uneducated that mixing in poor conditions is okie-dokie.

Actually, being a family business, I bet they do fine. Frogs are like anything else, cheaper to produce in volume. And with low overhead, they will still turn a profit. No labor costs. Selling a breeding pair each month probably covers electric bill. A handful of froglets will cover fly media and deli cups. The rest is pure profit.

scott_r Wrote:Actually, being a family business, I bet they do fine. Frogs are like anything else, cheaper to produce in volume. And with low overhead, they will still turn a profit. No labor costs. Selling a breeding pair each month probably covers electric bill. A handful of froglets will cover fly media and deli cups. The rest is pure profit.

Scott have you bred frogs for a living or business? Mine are a hobby and will always be a hobby, because it's a very tough road for a living. I do not see anyone getting rich in the dartfrog hobby.

There is one big difference. Dillion is an 18-20 year old kid living at home with I would imagine no bills other than maybe a car payment. And he is selling frogs at prices that flippers will go nuts for. If they have the quantities of frogs that were stated, they could easily have 10 pairs of each morph where a hobbyist has one. And as for hard goods, if they don't maintain any inventory and drop ship from their supplier, then they have no money tied up. While you have to go to work each day and make a living and sell the offspring for extra cash, Dillon has all day to spend working with his frogs and then go to the table when his mom yells supper is ready. When you think about it, he has a better chance of making it work than the rest of us except the retired folks. But even they have responsibilities and places to be.

Oh, if we only knew of someone who has made their living solely on dart frog production for quite a number of years, maybe they could give some input on what pays the bills and what makes ya go broke...

If I actually cared, I would ask Patrick. However, What??????? Why do I care to know what DFW can make money on and what would lose them money?

If you don't care, why do you care to comment about all other aspects of their business????
I will catch you back up though.

You mentioned that we should all get ready to see prices drop to $20.
I mention that at $20 a sellable frog people lose money.
You say no and mention ADULT pairs which will never sell for $20...
I imply that I may actually know that at $20 people lose money because I have been breeding ONLY PDFs for over a decade as my sole cashola.
You say you don't care and mention asking a guy who has NOT made his living solely breeding darts for the past decade.
We are caught up now.

Yes Rich, but your situation is much different than Dillon's. As is Patrick's, Mark's, Josh's, Daniel's, etc.
You have a mortgage, utilities, car expenses, etc. I assume. Dillon does not. So what is necessary for you is not necessary for him. He does not have to make a certain amount each month to live. You do. You are also selling a different class of frogs than he is. I imagine the ratio of tinc sells to obligate sells is quite high.

I mention Patrick, because I know how he started out. In 1996, I bought 5 bearded dragons from Patrick when they lived in Normal, Il. He had a couple pair of frogs at the time.

I have not commented on every aspect of their business, I commented that he will sell frogs. And He will. And because he has no overhead, he will sell them cheap. He is now. And people will buy from him due to price.

We don't disagree on much, but I believe they will be around much past the 15 month mark. Once the market becomes saturated, we will see. They either add other frogs or close shop.

Unfortunately I also think they will be around for a while due to some of those reasons. Plus add a father/ lawyer with $ who want to prove something.