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I will take the time out of my day, at some point, to cite a bunch of threads which explain things like;
Cross contamination by animals from different parts of the world and disease .
Frogs from one climate not doing well with frogs from other climates.
Stress by different dispositioned frogs.
The need (some may call it a want) to keep lineage clear and pure.
The HUGE mess which it causes when the fickle and/or uneducated and/ or greedywant to play around for a year or two , then decide to dump their little franken frogs off on the unsuspecting ( read The Family here...) hobby.
I am sorry, but the info is out there , ALL over the place, and the comment I made was directed at those whom you think can use the lack of info as a productive tool of spite...
Yes, some of us are a bit jaded and even more exhausted at the amount of time we have personally spent educating some and arguing against others who have all the info they need in front of their eyes.
Are there nice people with endless patience willing to go over why we don't want. Mixing for the thousandth time? Yup.
Has it already been documented from the beginning of our hobby? Yup.
Will the sky fall if some hybrids enter the hobby? No.
Do we want to have to guess about lineage or any other aspect of frogs we work with? Not me. No thanks.
I never said spite, I just said your answer was not an answer to my question. My answer was actually mild sarcasm with a light attempt at lightening things up. Citing threads will not answer my questions, unless of course there is actual documentation in those threads. I've read several of them, or parts of them until I get tired of the pissing contests and move on usually around the 2nd or 3rd page.
partsgal Wrote:I never said spite, I just said your answer was not an answer to my question. My answer was actually mild sarcasm with a light attempt at lightening things up. Citing threads will not answer my questions, unless of course there is actual documentation in those threads. I've read several of them, or parts of them until I get tired of the pissing contests and move on usually around the 2nd or 3rd page.
Well then, before I cite a bunch of facts, I point you to some of my concerns/factual issues with mixing in my last post.
There is plenty of actuall documentation about out crossing and it's possible issues, same with cross contamination and disease and also what happens when a frog which likes a dry climate and cool temps meet up with frogs which like wet climates and warmer temps.
But, like I said, I will need to dig all those out for you and let you know where to look when I have time .
When someone does something which they are warned against and quite possibly will not work out well...'just because' ...spite is usually an acceptable word to use for their reasoning being bad.
As far as why not make hybrids, it boils down to this for me...
The consensus in this hobby, is we don't want them.
The fish hobby has opened the door, and now it is acceptable to many if not most. It isn't just about what can cross with what, it is respecting that the majority of people who created and/or are currently in this frog hobby didn't want them. Someone may want hybrids or designer darts, but they are the minority. Making them and allowing them to become mainstream means that the whole hobby risks being a mix and match, where eventually no one can reasonably be sure what they buy is actually what they wanted to buy.
So for me it most about respecting the community/hobby rather then people just doing what you want, and making it a cluster fudge for everyone else.
I am against hybrids.
That being clear, I feel the can of worms is open and I fear there will be no stopping it.
We can collectively help stem the tide with discussion, but we will never be able to control people's actions. (Not that I would want to.) This makes it increasingly important to me to keep good records of what I have/produce and give the records away with the animals that I release. I also am increasingly interested in getting written documentation for any animal that I obtain. As always it is a trust thing, and anyone can write anything on a piece of paper, but this is how I see us being able to keep reasonably "pure" animals around even amid a multitude of questionable stuff.
I feel "glass half empty" on hybrids, but trust that those that care will be able to keep things going and will remain a large enough percentage to keep these lines long into the future. It may become more difficult to find quality stock in the future, so set up a group of your favorite frog now, write down where they are from, connect with others that have the same frogs, enjoy them and pass on your records with any offspring you produce.
2cents
But Dave that was the question I asked. It is beginning to appear to me that nobody really even knows the answer. If you don't then fine, it's all good. It was a question based on curiosity, simple as that.
Sherman, great point on the documentation. I have been involved with other groups and associations that do just that on a greater level.
Which leads to another question, again curiosity. There are many, many associations for various hobbyists who are working towards protecting whatever species they're working with. For example the Killifish Association and the American Betta Fish Association just to name a couple. They focus on education, conservation and helping form a consensus through research about the direction of their chosen hobbies. Why isn't there a PDF Association? Or is there one somewhere I've not been able to locate? People keep saying "the hobby" but exactly who is the voice of the hobby? These associations give that voice. Why aren't there some kind of BAPs in the PDF hobby like their are in many of the others? These types of programs are a win/win for the hobbyists. So if this is the ultimate goal of the hobby then why hasn't it been organized?
partsgal Wrote:But Dave that was the question I asked. It is beginning to appear to me that nobody really even knows the answer. If you don't then fine, it's all good. It was a question based on curiosity, simple as that.
Sherman, great point on the documentation. I have been involved with other groups and associations that do just that on a greater level.
Which leads to another question, again curiosity. There are many, many associations for various hobbyists who are working towards protecting whatever species they're working with. For example the Killifish Association and the American Betta Fish Association just to name a couple. They focus on education, conservation and helping form a consensus through research about the direction of their chosen hobbies. Why isn't there a PDF Association? Or is there one somewhere I've not been able to locate? People keep saying "the hobby" but exactly who is the voice of the hobby? These associations give that voice. Why aren't there some kind of BAPs in the PDF hobby like their are in many of the others? These types of programs are a win/win for the hobbyists. So if this is the ultimate goal of the hobby then why hasn't it been organized?
There is no association ( look up Dart Breeders' Union ) because it was like trying to herd cats...
You keep saying that nobody has answered your "question".
Well, as stated before , there is out crossing info , scientifically produced for years now, all over the interweb. Hard proof.
There is also scientific info about what happens when different animals from different areas of the word are mixed in less than optimal situations for at least one of the species. Same for cross contaminated animals and the want and need for registered animals or animals which there is little doubt of lineage . Much is just common sense , but documentation is all over the place.
So, I guess without spending our weekend citing this or that I throw out a word which our hobby revolves around...trust.
Most all of this hobby is trust driven. It takes time and personal effort to understand who can be trusted as good for the hobby and who is ruining our hobby.
Just as with many of the aspects of our hobby to get good info, tips, 'secrets' inside info on vendors, etc., etc., the harder you dig the more rewarded you will be.
It has been mentioned that to many they just want a couple froggies and no drama or chastisement or finger pointing or critisism or, or , or...well, many of us who have been doing this for awhile take our hobby and living a bit more serious and we really work very hard to keep quality up.
If for no other reason other than lineage tracking we as a hobby choose to frown upon that which has no benefit to the frogs at all, it is what it is. But that's far from the only reason...
Please go back and reread the question. I am not asking about hybridizing or crossing, exactly the opposite if one looks. I even stated quite clearly my stance on it, or did you even see that? It was a question on husbandry, plain and simple, driven mostly out of just plain curiosity. It also, taken in context and relayed in context, could also be a very valuable tool for helping new people to understand. It was a simple question. Period. I am not going to get in a pissing contest with someone over something so absolutely ridiculous as playing some spin game on words. I'm not here to argue, I'm here to learn and one learns by asking and getting straight-up, factual answers.
I've visited many forums and read countless discussions on pretty much every aspect of this, however there is some information that just doesn't seem readily available, hence the honest question. As to information, I've read magazine articles, numerous care sheets, advice and articles by people like Chris van der Lingen, Samples and, interestingly, Jack Wattley, whom I've long admired with his work with cichlids.
After I posted this I did stumble on your "Union" and am not surprised it failed to be honest, at least from what I read on that particular forum posting from a couple years ago. When one is doing something for a hobby one cannot exclude people from it. All have a right to a voice and a vote, that is what makes a hobby. Not just a select hand-picked few who wish to drown out anyone else's voice simply because they don't agree with it. There are many more people in the hobby than there are represented on the forums. Forums can be good or bad. They can be a great place with the right environment for sharing and learning, or they can become a bully pulpit. I've looked at several different frog forums to try and find one where there is an open atmosphere where one doesn't get pounced on. It doesn't appear there is one out there. I think perhaps I'll just write off forums ....
(P.S. I've also read a couple comments about people being too thin-skinned to take criticism and or advice, I will assure you this is not the case with me. I have actively been a site administrator on four different political forums, I recently stepped down after several years due to just plain burnout and the same arguments over and over again. Trust me, there is nothing hotter than politics so thin skinned I'm not. I finally realized my time is much more valuable than watching arguments break out time and again over the same subjects that are never resolved.)
RichFrye Wrote:There is no association ( look up Dart Breeders' Union ) because it was like trying to herd cats...
In what way are the people involved in the frog hobby unique that a national association can't be formed?
A frog club did not exist in Chicago when I entered the hobby, it can be argued now there are at least the beginnings of one. I think blaming the potential membership as being difficult to manage ("herding cats") is not the issue. I have seen other hobby clubs thrive or die and it has often been the result of the leadership not understanding the wants/needs of the members or potential members. Other times it's just mismanagement or having the wrong people in a leadership position.
But perhaps the number of froggers out there are just too small to support a national association. I don't know.
partsgal Wrote:Please go back and reread the question. I am not asking about hybridizing or crossing, exactly the opposite if one looks. I even stated quite clearly my stance on it, or did you even see that? It was a question on husbandry, plain and simple, driven mostly out of just plain curiosity. It also, taken in context and relayed in context, could also be a very valuable tool for helping new people to understand. It was a simple question. Period. I am not going to get in a pissing contest with someone over something so absolutely ridiculous as playing some spin game on words. I'm not here to argue, I'm here to learn and one learns by asking and getting straight-up, factual answers.
I've visited many forums and read countless discussions on pretty much every aspect of this, however there is some information that just doesn't seem readily available, hence the honest question. As to information, I've read magazine articles, numerous care sheets, advice and articles by people like Chris van der Lingen, Samples and, interestingly, Jack Wattley, whom I've long admired with his work with cichlids.
After I posted this I did stumble on your "Union" and am not surprised it failed to be honest, at least from what I read on that particular forum posting from a couple years ago. When one is doing something for a hobby one cannot exclude people from it. All have a right to a voice and a vote, that is what makes a hobby. Not just a select hand-picked few who wish to drown out anyone else's voice simply because they don't agree with it. There are many more people in the hobby than there are represented on the forums. Forums can be good or bad. They can be a great place with the right environment for sharing and learning, or they can become a bully pulpit. I've looked at several different frog forums to try and find one where there is an open atmosphere where one doesn't get pounced on. It doesn't appear there is one out there. I think perhaps I'll just write off forums ....
(P.S. I've also read a couple comments about people being too thin-skinned to take criticism and or advice, I will assure you this is not the case with me. I have actively been a site administrator on four different political forums, I recently stepped down after several years due to just plain burnout and the same arguments over and over again. Trust me, there is nothing hotter than politics so thin skinned I'm not. I finally realized my time is much more valuable than watching arguments break out time and again over the same subjects that are never resolved.)
I have read through all your posts and am yet scratching my head as to what specific husbandry question you had. Was it essentially, exactly what species of darts can breed with others? Was it what species mixes can produce viable offspring and not simply mules?
Sorry if I could not find your one husbandry questiond. This is most certainly not a pissing match.
Now, what some think of as a social gathering was not what a breeders' union was aiming at accomplishing. We were shooting a bit higher than that actually, drawing from ethical , long term , established , like minded breeders.
Just as not everyone gets into college (or a union), not all were welcomed in our union. Once admitted into the union all votes and voicing were equal .
ecichlid Wrote:RichFrye Wrote:There is no association ( look up Dart Breeders' Union ) because it was like trying to herd cats...
In what way are the people involved in the frog hobby unique that a national association can't be formed?
A frog club did not exist in Chicago when I entered the hobby, it can be argued now there are at least the beginnings of one. I think blaming the potential membership as being difficult to manage ("herding cats") is not the issue. I have seen other hobby clubs thrive or die and it has often been the result of the leadership not understanding the wants/needs of the members or potential members. Other times it's just mismanagement or having the wrong people in a leadership position.
But perhaps the number of froggers out there are just too small to support a national association. I don't know.
As I just noted, a club or social event every now and again was not what we were wanting with our union.
And, we do actually have a little club right here in Chicago. Quite a number of local froggers have been to, and are always welcome in my basement. That's an easy thing to do, host a little social gathering.
ecichlid Wrote:But perhaps the number of froggers out there are just too small to support a national association. I don't know.
I suspect this is the main issue. The PDF keeper population is relatively small compared to the fish hobby. There has been much debate on the size of the hobby, but the general consensus seems to be less than 50,000 people are keeping frogs, with a much lower number of "core" enthusiasts (not necessarily people who frequent the boards) that keep the hobby going. I would guess that number is in the hundreds (there are threads here on DD talking about the duration of participation of a hobbyist, and in general, most hobbyists fall out of keeping within a year).
A quick visit to wikipedia turned up this:
Quote:In 1993 the United States Census Bureau found that 10.6% of U.S. households owned ornamental freshwater or saltwater fish, with an average of 8.8 fish per household. In 1993, the retail value of the fish hobby in the United States was US$910 million.
Given 91.9 million total US households in 1990,[12] 9.7 million are fish keepers.
That's a much broader population than the dart hobby, so I can see where traction is limited on what I would consider very specialized groups. It takes a lot of dedicated support to maintain these groups, and I don't think the dart hobby has hit the critical mass (and likely won't) that can support something like the ACA CARES that can draw from 10 million people to support the organization. Just my opinion, but I think some folks overestimate the scale of the PDF hobby.
But hey I could be wrong
- maybe there are a heck of a lot more people out there with PDFs.
As a former ACA member and a former supporter of the ACA, I have no doubt that the cichlid hobby is bigger than the frog hobby. It may be the frog hobby is too small at this point in time to have a formal organization.
I agree with you Rich. A social event is an easy thing to do on a local level. Unfortunately, I did not see any events being publicly announced, nor a hint of any organization. Certainly nothing remotely close to the Greater Chicago Cichlid Association in terms of activity or structure.
The last Chicagoland Frogger Social had about two dozen attendees, including some of the most prominent people in the hobby. I expect with the added attention, we will get 30-40 attendees this time around. Having free wings and drinks, along with some really nice door prizes, can't hurt! Hope to see you and everyone else there! :-)
partsgal Wrote:But Dave that was the question I asked. It is beginning to appear to me that nobody really even knows the answer. If you don't then fine, it's all good. It was a question based on curiosity, simple as that.
Sherman, great point on the documentation. I have been involved with other groups and associations that do just that on a greater level.
Which leads to another question, again curiosity. There are many, many associations for various hobbyists who are working towards protecting whatever species they're working with. For example the Killifish Association and the American Betta Fish Association just to name a couple. They focus on education, conservation and helping form a consensus through research about the direction of their chosen hobbies. Why isn't there a PDF Association? Or is there one somewhere I've not been able to locate? People keep saying "the hobby" but exactly who is the voice of the hobby? These associations give that voice. Why aren't there some kind of BAPs in the PDF hobby like their are in many of the others? These types of programs are a win/win for the hobbyists. So if this is the ultimate goal of the hobby then why hasn't it been organized?
Did you mean "But Dave that was
not the question I asked"? ...I don't think at the time I was really responding directly to you, but rather was just putting that out there for everyone. (also just so you know there is no "tone" here, I just didn't know how else to word it.)
What was your question? ...What frogs can hybridize? or was there more? ...Truly other then the commonly known ones like luec x auratus, tinc x auratus... I don't know. I remember reading something in a book or research paper that talked about which frogs were capable of hybridizing and being fertile or not, but for the life of me can't remember the source or much of the info.
As for a PDF association, I'd love to see something like that. I think we should have something like that. Tree walkers international exists, as does amphibian ark, but both seem to be more a general amphibian conservation program, and I don't really know how effective TWI has been in getting much done. I think most got involved with it for the amphibian stewards network and the chance to deal with rare stuff but not much ever seemed to come from that. Not sure exactly what all amphibian ark has done either.
To some degree both TWI and the proposed breeders union wanted to get people to honor a certain code of conduct in their husbandry practices and perhaps even wanted to take it a step further. I think a pure conservation organization that didn't deal directly with our personal husbandry and stayed out of hobby politics would get a lot more traction. It does kinda seem silly that there isn't conservation group specific to dart frogs, or have I just missed it?
So ya if someone gets a dart frog focused conservation effort going that is aimed at protecting wild frogs and habitat, that's something I wanna know about and probably be involved with. Seems like stuff that preserves habitat and possibly provides financial incentive to locals to protect and manage land like through eco tourism is probably one of the better ways to go. Understory seems to be the main one who's really managed to actually get anything done a long those lines.
LOL Thank you Dave. Yes, just a typo, thank you, I hadn't noticed. See what happens when I don't carefully re-read what I wrote?
And I didn't see any "tone" there at all.
The entire point on what, if any, frogs cannot hybridize and in fact cannot even produce mules, was for the person who just wants a pretty frog(s). They don't necessarily want to breed. Kind of like that person that wants the mixed tropical aquarium. They will have several different kinds of fish in it that are just "pretty" and that is the only reason they have them. Whether the hobby likes it or not there are going to be those kind of people who just want frogs, they could care less about the hobby or conservation or breeding. So if there were recommendations that could be made to them that okay, you can keep this frog and that frog but only if you have such and such size enclosure and no more than X number of frogs then it might discourage them from mixing the frogs that will. Rather than just straight out no, now I'm giving you options. And further it along with you can't keep this one and this one because, and list valid, understandable reasons such as frog-specific needs. Why can't I keep a betta and a goldfish in the same tank? I can give any number of factual reasons for that.
But also one must keep in mind that no matter how many times you tell people that there are going to be those that won't listen, or just plain don't care. But the impatience with them cannot carry over to the next newbie that posts the same question the next day. Yes it's frustrating. Yes, some are lazy and won't bother to research and/or listen if they don't like the answer. But it's worth it for the ones that do.
I guess the whole thing is I'm so confused. So many different opinions on so many different aspects that sometimes it's hard to sort out the fact from the speculation and/or opinion. I like fact-based answers. I have read many articles and I totally get the fact that we don't mix PDF from different locations. But I read an article recently that says that some of the different morphs within a single location are often found together but were separated by importers and breeders as separate morphs, basically just line bred for that specific coloration. This particular article was on the auratus. And for many that were imported the location wasn't even known for sure because they wanted to keep the location secret. Now the author of the article specifically stressed over and over again, do not mix locations. However he seemed to be saying that separating the morphs was incorrect and indeed weakened the lineage. Any thoughts? The article was from TWI, their Leaf Litter magazine. I can link it but I'm sure most of you have probably read it. I searched the site here and haven't seen any discussion on it specifically. Any thoughts on that?
I agree totally on the association concentrating on conservation, outreach and stressing the CB over importing more wild frogs, that is the best way to ensure that the hobby isn't damaging the population. I think the internal politics and squabbling needs to be left out and it can't be an exclusive "good ol' boys" club. It has to be open to anyone who is interestied in learning, furthering and in turn passing that education on. After all most of them charge a small membership fee and use this funding for research, conservation, outreach and so on. A code of ethics usually is part of joining the association. Anyone interested in joining should be allowed to. Certainly any association, especially one just being started, needs to have those senior members as they most likely will be the first elected members. However, fresh voices need to have input as well. This will increase membership, increase awareness and overall increase funding. Just my .02 worth.
partsgal Wrote:Please go back and reread the question. I am not asking about hybridizing or crossing...
OK, at least the second request to re-state your 'one question' not revolving around hybrids or crossing, please.
I will attempt to answer it.
Partsgal: The length of your question and it's 'side roads' makes it hard to digest...
I am a fan of bullet point references in some cases - to break the ice for everyone. Maybe a step backwards will help here. Here's some blurbs of mine...see if any can assist in this dialogue.
1. Hybridizing is not favoured by the majority of the hobby - probably close to 90% would be my guess.
2. Older more experienced hobbyists tend to NOT recommend multi species enclosures for the hybrid concern as well as inter-species stress and aggression. Especially for new hobbyists. I highly advocate against anything other than a single species tank.
3.The old adage still holds true ' if ya hafta ask...then you are not ready'. Like Rich keeps sayin' -all the answers and comments are here, archived. There are 3-4 full-blown threads on mixing chock a block full of comments. One excellent thread is Jellyman's thread for instance.
4. This thread and this forum is VERY civil IMO. Forums are the BEST place to come to discuss things like this.
5. Some people (NOT saying you) are 'fishermen'. They will fish and fish and fish until they catch the answer that they wish to hear. They have blinders on. Not good.
6. There is no such organization that looks out for the U.S Dart Frog hobby's interest and is active politically. TWI and AARK ect are all conservation based - almost 100%. We will soon change that if I can help it. We will have a true organization here at some point soon, I hope.
7. NO ONE here is an expert. No one can be pointed to as provided anything more than opinion. This is a hobby forum. It is almost 100% opinion and personal experience driven. You can give credence to the zookeepers here, the long term breeders, the old heads, the high post count people, but in the end....you can't fish or look for people to provide FACTS. Judge the info that you read here and decide whether or not if you believe or trust in it, but don't be mistaken into considering things experts' or 'facts'.
8. I thought my introductory posting at the front of this thread was pretty 'nice and tight' but it seems like it fell on deaf ears. I thought it answered at least 70% of your questions and concerns.
Let's stay on track here with hybrid info here guys. I have opened up a thread on the Law Symposium where I'd like to discuss forming an association.
Okay Rich, just forget it. No questions pending. Obviously I can't get what I'm trying to ask across. That's my fault.
Phil, I hate threaded/quoted comments as I think they get too messy so most often I'm not going to quote someone in a response, other than just a partial one if it's a few comments further up and just to keep the conversation clear. So I'll just answer you with, okay. Got it. Moving on.
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