Dart Den

We WANT to help, but something is missing in the translation - both sides, I fear.

I'll take another stab...

Some people occasionally show up - new / out of the blue, and wish to create a 'vibrant' symphony of colours and shapes of frogs. They see a lot of pet store tanks, zoo exhibits and even a few pics online and decide that they simply must have an enclosure with 5-6 different species or different 'morphs' / localities. Some look far enough to see that the hobby is so against hybrids that they want to take steps to not have that happen (hard to do).

They find a few threads and post to 'back them up' and a few fringe or minority hobbyists to share their opinions.

I highly recommend against engaging in anything like the above. I have seen a ton of 'fail' and not much 'sucess' or happy hobbyist.

Just my 02

This was a useful thread with a link to pictures of hybrids:
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=7608

Again, this is NOT something I want to do. I am against hybrids myself, I got that trait from my fish. No hybrids. I stated that very very clearly from the very first post and have repeated it as well. I'm not fishing. I'm not trying to stir up trouble. So let's just shelve it. It's all good. Apparently I can't word it in a way that is clear. That is my fault, not yours.

IMO @ 90% of the Dart Frog hobby is opposed to anything crossbred, hybridized or even mixed population.

Only the new people get snookered into a 'buzz' that there MAY be some kewl hybrid interest. There is not. The buzz, if any, is fictitious or overblown.

The 90% of us want the frog to look and act exactly like it does, did in the wild.

Do frogs and animals naturally hybridized and intergrade? Sure. It only takes hundreds if not thousands of years.

I want natures 'products'.

I do not want some unnatural 'frankenfrog' made up by some kid and his dad with only two years experience, in their basement. It's just that simple.

I agree with you Phil, but consider this. I was a cichlid hobbyist for many years. The sentiment we share with with frog hybrids I also shared with other cichlid hobbyists. As less new and interesting cichlids were being imported from the wild, it all changed. Hybrids which were disdained before, became more and more popular and the trend continues. Down the road, when new frog discoveries are rare, you will see an increase in popularity of hybrids.

Wow..the importers 'ran out' of cichlids to import?

I just don't think we would have that same problem with frogs. I hope not anyway.

They ran out of significant types. First the number of new species dropped off, then it was the number of new varieties. People thirsted for new stuff, but it was very infrequent. Then the hybrids started to gain a foothold.

It will happen with dart frogs.

If only we could get zoos and scientific institutes to prevent hybridizing or mixing species in the display tanks. It sends a wrong message to everyone who sees them and when new people come into the hobby they believe they can create the same environment for their frogs.

We will never get Zoos to change

We will NEVER get people to submit to breeding tracking or ANY semblance of it.

These are also known as 'beating your head against the wall' issues. As soon as we move AROUND these issues and bypass them to move FORWARD, we will all be better off.

The strongest Medicine to be used against 'Hybrids' and people with suspect or undesirable animals and methods is to STOP using facebook and spend more time on the Forums.

Take your time.

Research.

PUT yourself out there...post and ask questions.

Go to frog gatherings. You won't (most likely) be trapped and placed in a well and be made to put lotion on. I've never heard of it happening for really-real, anyway.

Philsuma Wrote:The strongest Medicine to be used against 'Hybrids' and people with suspect or undesirable animals and methods is to STOP using facebook and spend more time on the Forums.

How is that?

I recently received Three pm's and one email from new hobbyists that are now complaining that they bought frogs from a newly on the scene company and they suspect their new mail order frogs are mixed or otherwise suspect. Three of the four people used Facebook exclusively for their hobby info and now they finally found their way here. They asked what could be done and a couple of them want refunds and their frogs returned.

I told them there is not much chance of help unless they get lucky. I tell them all to pick hobbyists and breeders on forums instead of Facebook.

I agree with your goal, but I don't think you could possibly get someone is who is a Facebook user to simply "STOP using facebook". I think you would have better results by participating in Facebook in the frog groups. I started one for Chicagoland. It's been a great tool. I saw some advice on there there the other day that I think most of us would disagree with. I jumped in to make what I thought was a correction. Simple as that.

There are already unknown hybrids in the hobby. Dwarf, surinam, brazilian yellow heads are all crosses I heard people making because they didn't know the difference and thought all were just cobalts. Standard leucs are an amalgamation from different imports. Bicolors. Auratus. A lot of the old lines were mixed because no one knew.

Your captives are no closer to the wild than any hybrid. You need predators and diverse weather conditions, parasites, diseases and other things to make an animal "like the wild counterpart". Most don't even let the frogs raise their own tads. The idea of "wild-type" is no where near wild type. It only serves to make sure that you will always be going back to the wild when trying to keep them "wild type". Pretty counter to the conservation ideal most say they subscribe to.

I'm sure that some of the animals we get in imports are intergrades in less than hospitable environments between "populations". It doesn't take thousands of years, it happens all the time somewhere in the world. And I'm sure some populations of darts are 2 populations connected by intergrades at various points in their range.

The idea that anyone "owns" this hobby is pretty entitled to say the least. It's everyone's hobby, whether you like hybrids or not. To say that people are ruining it for you because they are exploring the hobby as they wish and you don't have to buy anything from them, well that's tantamount to being against homosexuals because you don't like what they do. No one is asking you to buy or create hybrids. If you own old lines you may have hybrids and not even know it. Does that make you enjoy them any less?

What if the Paru Sylvatica were moved by the locals on their fishing trips as stowaways, on purpose to bring luck with them or to have a new source for darts, etc. Will you not buy animals from those populations because the locals hybridized them?

I can see starting a studbook or something to keep things pure but to just expect people all to do this hobby the way you want them all to is pretty conceited, esp. since the rest of the reptile and fish world has no problems with it.

Besides that, there are not enough people in the hobby to keep half the morphs "pure" out there. I couldn't care less how you approach it but if you really want to keep things pure and keep hybrids out your ONLY CHANCE is to start studbooks or a tracking system. Or only buy from people with wc breeding pairs, although that's not very conservation oriented.

When you said above, "Dwarf, surinam..."...Are you talking about the Dwarf Cobalts? I thought those were a naturally occurring morph.

Things are really starting to get scary in this hobby. I just noticed that company that is hybridizing Tincs has put up a lot of ads on Kingsnake.

dwarf french guiana cobalts are a naturally occurring morph and so are surinam cobalts and both have been crossed in the hobby. I've had more than 1 person come up to me saying one frog was much bigger than the other with their pair and have figured out with them that they bought 2 different "cobalts" and crossed them.

It's not scary if you get your frogs from known sources or don't want to breed your frogs.

Aaron has made some excellent points to counter the argument of hybrids becoming more mainstream in the hobby.

He basically says:

1. No one owns the hobby or is in any way 'entitled' to anything. The frogs and the hobby belong to whomever.

I agree.

2. If a hobbyist demands 'pure blood' or a wild caught animal for any reason, that is their fault / problem and should not reflect on the hybridizer.

I agree somewhat. We should not talk about knee-jerk reactions as 'we will all just buy more wild caught stuff' when faced with hybridizers.

and he probably made some other good points, but those are the main two that stand out to me, at least.

I am still very much opposed to hybridizing frogs and I truly believe it hurts the hobby more than helps it. I think we can almost distill this entire argument all the way back down to the elementary school playground.

It's recess time. There are all sorts of kids playing kickball, dodge ball ect. There are some kids that I don't like and will never play with. There are other kids that I would love to have sleep over at my house of vice versa, watch the same movies I like, play with the same toys I like.

Just hang around the kids you like, and avoid the ones you don't like. Some kids have lice, smell bad, are uncouth, ignorant or were raised bad, but ya know what? There's just not much we can do about it other than just plain avoid them.

[quote="Roadrunner"]There are already unknown hybrids in the hobby. Dwarf, surinam, brazilian yellow heads are all crosses I heard people making because they didn't know the difference and thought all were just cobalts. Standard leucs are an amalgamation from different imports. Bicolors. Auratus. A lot of the old lines were mixed because no one knew. [/quote]

There is some truth to this, and most people will freely admit we can't be 100% certain , or %100 prefect, but again here you are with the "Throw the baby out with the bath water" argument. Having something that we feel is close means something to a lot of people in this hobby. If it doesn't to you that would be fine, except those who mix lessen the probability that something is close more and more. We can't stop you from keeping frogs, we can't even stop you from mixing but your action can destroy our ability tondo what we want. How can you not see that as an ethical dilemma?

[quote="Roadrunner"]Your captives are no closer to the wild than any hybrid. You need predators and diverse weather conditions, parasites, diseases and other things to make an animal "like the wild counterpart". Most don't even let the frogs raise their own tads. The idea of "wild-type" is no where near wild type. It only serves to make sure that you will always be going back to the wild when trying to keep them "wild type". Pretty counter to the conservation ideal most say they subscribe to.[/quote]

Again a gross exaggeration, and more of the baby/bath water argument. Most of our captive populations breed fairly true or represent most of varability found in their wild counter part population.

Oh and many people do let the frogs breed in tank and morph out. I've done it with azuerus, and gl lamasi, and it's pretty much imperative for pumilio. Removing eggs, tads, or froglets to decrease mortality is a far cry from designer frogs. Starting to notice a trend here of you blowing minor imperfection or changes and trying to make them seem on par with something's radically more..
well, radical I guess

You conservation argument has had several holes shot in it by me and others, but here we go again ...

You don't think the designer people will jump on anything new, especially if it might be profitable? ...naive at best.

The simple truth, right or wrong, whether because it is something new, something unique, to increase diversity, replace lost CB populations, or some franken frogger things they can use it to gain fame and fortune. is if WC frogs are offered, WC frogs will be bought...

You expect the WC frog market to just dry up one designers are common place?.. naive at best.


You expect all the people that do care about, and want to keep an actual blue azureus and more enjoyment and meaning in that then some mutt, to just pack up and quit the hobby and not try to rebuild what the disigner crowd bred out of existence?... naive at best.

Simple truth is if wild frogs are offered and they new, cheap, or serve a purpose then WC frogs will be bought. Designer frogs do no more for conservation. Its a thinly veiled attempt to justify/rationalize something considered taboo by many and sell it to the unimformed who don't k ow better, or people willing to grasp at straws to justify their selfish desire no matter what it may cost others... Fail.

[quote="Roadrunner"]I'm sure that some of the animals we get in imports are intergrades in less than hospitable environments between "populations". It doesn't take thousands of years, it happens all the time somewhere in the world. And I'm sure some populations of darts are 2 populations connected by intergrades at various points in their range.[/quote]

I'm sure they are too, but few mixed couplings a year under the pressures of natural selection that are tempered by those frogs mixing back into the larger population is a hell of a lot different then a guy pumping out hundreds or thousands and making conscious decisions forcing certain frogs together.

Lots of small changes happen sure, and occasionally you get quick significant change but overall, the evolutionary processes that lead to major lasting change do tend to take hundreds, thousands, or even millions of years. And as you pointed ou many of the means by with natural selection and thus evolution occur are absent or mitigated in captivity, so the changes we make can a have much quicker and significant consequences. Seem that preserving natures progress and only purposefully making cautious changes when needed might be the more prudent long term pla, instead if throwing all our frogs into a blender to make new ones.

[quote="Roadrunner"]The idea that anyone "owns" this hobby is pretty entitled to say the least. It's everyone's hobby, whether you like hybrids or not. To say that people are ruining it for you because they are exploring the hobby as they wish and you don't have to buy anything from them, well that's tantamount to being against homosexuals because you don't like what they do. No one is asking you to buy or create hybrids. If you own old lines you may have hybrids and not even know it. Does that make you enjoy them any less?[/quote]

No one does, but seems like asking someone to respect what was and help insure it it endures rather then taking actions that put it at risk and may possibly destroy what was and the enjoyment and meaning people were getting from it is a perfectly acceptable and ethical expectation.

Your homosexual argument is flawed. What they do doesn't run the risk of breeding all the girls I might hook up with out of existence. Now if you said they were forcing people to have sex with them or destroying the capability to have straight sex then your argument would actually resemble the issue and the position designer frogs may put us in.

We can't stop them, but doing what they want to do puts what we have a d are doing at risk... potentially rendering it impossible, while as long as two different varieties of frogs can breed together the chance for your world of frankenfrogs gets to exist. Do you really not see the difference there and the ethical implications?

We have the moral high ground because we can't destroy your way of life, all we can do is bitch about it... but you just doing it at all puts our way of life at risk to end and possibly never be again... a thanks!

[quote="Roadrunner"]What if the Paru Sylvatica were moved by the locals on their fishing trips as stowaways, on purpose to bring luck with them or to have a new source for darts, etc. Will you not buy animals from those populations because the locals hybridized them?[/quote]
Maybe not, especially if I'm sure that happened, but if people do and then try to keep them as representative as possible not only do they preserve as much as possible of that variety, they also preserve the result of those events a d the impact it had on the species at that moment in time. Thing like that have meaning to some people, a designer free for all could destroy that incarnation of living history. Again because some don't care about what we have and what we want they are willing to risk its very existence to get what they do want... Seem pretty damn selfish, immoral, and unethical to me.


[quote="Roadrunner"]
I can see starting a studbook or something to keep things pure but to just expect people all to do this hobby the way you want them all to is pretty conceited, esp. since the rest of the reptile and fish world has no problems with it.[/quote]

Conceited to expect people to show respect for what came before when it means so much to so many and their actions in danger it? ...Wow... but ya it would be nice if we had a better management plan. I'm just not convinced that the fact we don't, entitles others to torpedo what we do have to suit their selfish desires. Like I said on DB that sounds a lot like the "look at how she was dressed! ...she was asking for it!" defense.
[quote="Roadrunner"]Besides that, there are not enough people in the hobby to keep half the morphs "pure" out there. I couldn't care less how you approach it but if you really want to keep things pure and keep hybrids out your ONLY CHANCE is to start studbooks or a tracking system. Or only buy from people with wc breeding pairs, although that's not very conservation oriented.

What we've been doing isn't perfect. I even admit that we may have to do some thoughtful and cautious mixing to preserve a frog and will likely have just accept it as less representative then it used to be, but it will still be something that holds more value to is then a random mutt. There is a big difference between a designer free for all, and thoughtful, cautious, and necessary adaptation to circumstances. That gulf becomes even wider when you consider the difference between one or a few forcing vast and rapid change on an unwilling community, vs a community acting on some degree of consensus to preserve the integrity and viability of a particular frog pop... Again one seems a hell of a lot more ethical then the other, and I submit that as further evidence we have the moral high ground.


And if all those holes I just shot through all those arguments aren't enough to sway the majority who cared enough to read, then there is always this...



FTW

Dude, just because you write more doesn't make it true. You've taken most everything out of context, forgot that women can be lesbians(they can't be because men might not have people to have sex with?) and can not see how flawed your arguments are.
First, hybrids are natural, that argument is gone.
Second, hybrids have been here since the beginning and have been created by people such as Patrick Nabors(thru a zoo) and Christina Hanson and Todd Kelley( a beautiful leuc x azureus) amongst others, since the beginning. I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater just blowing up your argument that the ones who came before deserve respect. No one OWNS the hobby.
Third, you continually play on what "the hobby" wants but you and no one else can speak for it.
fourth, your other argument about being raped and asking for it, no, you are looking for sex and you didn't do enough of a background check and let the wrong person in. No one owes it to you to only have suitors available which fit your needs.
Fifth, where do you draw the line. 5-10 a year per hobbyist is ok but one company producing hundreds is too much? Why do you think ALL these hybrids will automatically be bred into pure populations? Are you guys really that lax in your qualifications for breeding programs. I think we've identified the bigger problem then.
sixth, pure frogs are not the default to the hobby.
seventh, you can't say hybrids aren't worth anything and then say that they'll be buying up all the wc to make new hybrids to make cash off the newest one. Most of your argument is just "I want and I don't want to do" and i'm better because..." and if you have no horse in the race you see it for what it is, whining. There is an easy way out but instead you guys just want to whine and complain. Wouldn't it be funny if there was a hybrid dart frog breeding site that tracked all teh lineages of hybrid and outcrossed frogs and they actually tracked everything. Who would be more conservation oriented then? And they did things like not dust and no meds and just bred for the healthiest specimens in captivity and actually made a frog selected to be hardy in these glass boxes, to resist common diseases and do better with lo air movement and very hi humidity.

I hate when sites don't allow edits. GRRR!

Just think, if more people were of the culture of wanting a pet that's NOT found in nature instead of wanting something that's just like it's found in nature(which isn't technically a "pet") we'd have no worries about smuggling, or at least people wouldn't be buying WC as pets.

Realistically, I bet most couldn't even tell the difference between a hybrid and a purebred if they look similar. I just don't see, myself, why it matters so much if no one could tell unless breeding to make money and were dissappointed that offspring showed they were mixed(although sometimes mutants just pop up anyway so you could never really be sure).

Back to my playground analogy.

Let's just say that there MAY come along...a hybridizer that 'does it right' and that I (and others) like and even possibly admire.

Right now, that person ain't Rick and family. It ain't them.