Dart Den

Rusty,

I don't need to explain myself to any of you and some I have even done business with in the past but after your shitty comments I couldn't help it. These are my frogs that I have cared deeply for over the past several years. You don't know my situation and why I am choosing to part with them. There are tons of people who own hybrids including breeders as well. Anyone at anytime can make a hybrid with or without these frogs, so how is my frog family going to make all the difference in the world? You sir are a shitty person to mention even putting them down and have probably been brainwashed like many others. I would rather they go to a school or someone who cares.

swirlygig Wrote:Rusty,

I don't need to explain myself to any of you and some I have even done business with in the past but after your shitty comments I couldn't help it. These are my frogs that I have cared deeply for over the past several years. You don't know my situation and why I am choosing to part with them. There are tons of people who own hybrids including breeders as well. Anyone at anytime can make a hybrid with or without these frogs, so how is my frog family going to make all the difference in the world? You sir are a shitty person to mention even putting them down and have probably been brainwashed like many others. I would rather they go to a school or someone who cares.

Seriously, do the right thing bud, make a few vivs or even the ones you have...offer them to school science depts and try to maybe set up an education presentation about them and leave them for display... Ive done it with at least 10 schools and most are still alive and happy.

hoppityBoppity11 Wrote:I dont condone the practice, but i get second thoughts before stomping on a roach when i see one in my house....

If one keeps a clean house, one does not have to kill roaches...

pun intended.

Ghostvivs Wrote:

hoppityBoppity11 Wrote:I dont condone the practice, but i get second thoughts before stomping on a roach when i see one in my house....

If one keeps a clean house, one does not have to kill roaches...

pun intended.

I eat alot of cookies.

swirlygig Wrote:Rusty,

I don't need to explain myself to any of you and some I have even done business with in the past but after your shitty comments I couldn't help it. These are my frogs that I have cared deeply for over the past several years. You don't know my situation and why I am choosing to part with them. There are tons of people who own hybrids including breeders as well. Anyone at anytime can make a hybrid with or without these frogs, so how is my frog family going to make all the difference in the world? You sir are a shitty person to mention even putting them down and have probably been brainwashed like many others. I would rather they go to a school or someone who cares.

Does 350.00 make someone care?

Also, how long have you been on the forums? Can you honestly say you didn't know your for sale add wasn't going catch any flack?

Back into your hole Ferrell.

swirlygig Wrote:Rusty,

I don't need to explain myself to any of you and some I have even done business with in the past but after your shitty comments I couldn't help it. These are my frogs that I have cared deeply for over the past several years. You don't know my situation and why I am choosing to part with them. There are tons of people who own hybrids including breeders as well. Anyone at anytime can make a hybrid with or without these frogs, so how is my frog family going to make all the difference in the world? You sir are a shitty person to mention even putting them down and have probably been brainwashed like many others. I would rather they go to a school or someone who cares.

I suggest you spend the time to donate one frog per school and also donate one viv per frog.
Donate . Not sell.

RichFrye Wrote:I suggest you spend the time to donate one frog per school and also donate one viv per frog.
Donate . Not sell.

I agree, I would venture that most schools have a 10 gallon fish tank.
Selling hybrids is IMO very irresponsible.

Selling a hybrid is irresponsible!!! So make something with a heart fucking beat suffer and go back to your awesome little of a life and talk about it with your "circle" of friends. Plain stupid dumb. Who are we to deny any form of life? You my friend qre an ignoramoose!

swirlygig Wrote:Rusty,

I don't need to explain myself to any of you and some I have even done business with in the past but after your shitty comments I couldn't help it. These are my frogs that I have cared deeply for over the past several years. You don't know my situation and why I am choosing to part with them. There are tons of people who own hybrids including breeders as well. Anyone at anytime can make a hybrid with or without these frogs, so how is my frog family going to make all the difference in the world? You sir are a shitty person to mention even putting them down and have probably been brainwashed like many others. I would rather they go to a school or someone who cares.

I won't touch the hybrid portion of this sell, but what really concerns me is your basic husbandry.

"Cared deeply"?? So, 17 frogs in a 46g and by the pics you posted no leaf litter, if this is what you call caring for the health and welfare of your animals, then you missed some threads in the beginner section. This needs to posted in the Beginner section under "What NOT to do".

swirlygig Wrote:Rusty,

I don't need to explain myself to any of you and some I have even done business with in the past but after your shitty comments I couldn't help it. These are my frogs that I have cared deeply for over the past several years. You don't know my situation and why I am choosing to part with them. There are tons of people who own hybrids including breeders as well. Anyone at anytime can make a hybrid with or without these frogs, so how is my frog family going to make all the difference in the world? You sir are a shitty person to mention even putting them down and have probably been brainwashed like many others. I would rather they go to a school or someone who cares.

Ok so I'm a shitty person. I sleep very well at night.

The problem is once those hybrid frogs are out of your hands you lose all control over them. You might think they're going to someone responsible, someone that might do the right thing with them. But you have ZERO control over that. For example, I sold frogs to the Waschers, once they were out of my hands look what happened. They're now Auroras and Sunkist.

As far as being in a classroom while it seems like a good idea, you're far less likely to find a teacher with the proper resources and permission to keep frogs in their class. Trust me on this I talk to 10 teachers a week in conjunction with my job and I've offered to donate frogs, ff's, to help set up a viv, and come talk to the class about the frogs and zero teachers have taken me up on the offer.
Perhaps a laboratory would be better? Like Dr. Frankensteins lab.

hoppityBoppity11 Wrote:Look casper...im going to lay this out plain and simple. I disagree with shutting down something with life simply because a few of us in this hobby frown upon it and I felt there are options other than euthanizing them...we play god hybridizing these animals when we do? But were not playing god taking their lives whenever we feel like it just to please the mindset of a small hobby...

I'm just playing devils advocate here, but who cares? I don't understand how if some of you have a problem with taking the frogs lives, don't have a problem with the countless FF "heartbeats" that have been taken. Where do you draw the line? There really isn't a right or wrong answer I guess, it's all individual morals. I just think if you're worried about taking lives, you shouldn't be keeping carnivores as pets.

Oops, it's too late to edit the above post. I just remembered there is new research out there that frogs bond with their owners now. I'll go find the source of that quick...

So putting down those hybrids is exactly the same as putting down an old dog.

Leucomela = old Yeller...

JayMillz Wrote:Oops, it's too late to edit the above post. I just remembered there is new research out there that frogs bond with their owners now. I'll go find the source of that quick...

So putting down those hybrids is exactly the same as putting down an old dog.

See!? And besides, ffs...the only way they have bonded with me was either crawling into my ears while sleeping or taking a swim in my cereal in the morning.

Nobody would have to "play God" and euthanize these frogs if nobody had "played God" in the first place and created these hybrids!

DianeCarter Wrote:Nobody would have to "play God" and euthanize these frogs if nobody had "played God" in the first place and created these hybrids!

And!? Dont do it twice then and let them be! ;-)

Since I have hybrid frogs and am open and honest about having them, I get to see more hybrids then I probably normally would. What I think people are overlooking is that most hybrids or frogs that the owner may think is possibly a hybrid do not look different then a non hybrid frog. Honesty by the owner is the key to not having them wrongly labeled in the hobby. This seller did the right thing but this thread will more then likely cause the next seller to make a different choice. There are many more owners of mixed and hybrids then the members on DD and DB think. This method of fear will certainly deter and slow the inevitable but it is going to cause many more frogs to be improperly labeled and sold to unsuspecting buyers. There will always be hobbyist to some degree that keep mixed tanks. These hobbyist may create intentionally or "by mistake" hybrids. Most people are not going to kill the frogs. Whether you agree or disagree with hybrids, the question remains, do you want honest frog owners or owners that unload their frogs under false pretense?

I guess I just don't see the point of playing God and making hybrids when there are so many wonderful species already in existence and taking the chance that those hybrids will get out into the mainstream turning this great hobby into the Ball Python hobby. I also believe that to some degree, mixed tanks can be successful IF the conditions are right and the person has enough experience. Like I said in my previous post, I am not as pissed about the hybrids as I am the number of frogs in a 46 gallon viv, that equals about 2.7 gallons per frog for some what appears to be mostly tincs.

Ok, I have read the comment "playing God" enough. Each and every damn member of this hobby plays God every day. And I am not just talking about the holier than thou attitudes.

Tincs reach sexual maturity around 24 months old. However, everyone pushes them to start pumping out eggs at 10 to 12 months old. And then push them to breed year around. You seperate the tads, so even the weak survive. If they morph with SLS, you kill them.

I have not bred frogs in several years. I don't have a desire to any more. I just enjoy keeping and working with frogs. I keep humidity low and have increased ventilation 10 months out of the year. I do increase humidity and lower the temps 2 months a year to allow them to breed. I usually cull all the eggs. I do raise a few tads every few years since my frogs are getting old. And when I do, I experiment with naturose, super pig, and paprika. As well as water temps and cleanliness. And yes, they are all pure breeds. But I too am "playing god"

Jelly and I have had many conversations over the years. We do things differently. I do know that Jelly's frogs are fat, happy, and healthy. If I recall, his enclosure is 6 feet long. They have more room per frog than most in the hobby.

Jelly bought his frogs, I bought mine. We each do our own thing. However, neither of us has the right to tell the other what to do with their frogs. I doubt Jelly pushed his frogs to breed a year before they were mature. And I doubt he pushes them to breed non stop. And he is honest about what he keeps.

After 136 pages of accusations and lies on DB, Phil reported that the frogs he thought to be DFW frogs looked to be healthy and pure. Why is Sunkist worse than Lemon Drop? Why do you except line breeding and made up names from Stewart, yet raise hell when DFW does it?

Why is it ok for one guy to care for 120 vivs full of frogs by himself, but not ok for an entire familly to take care of probably that many vivs? Because they are kids? You learn to raise FF in grade school. And because of technology kids today are alot smarter.
Rick is a pompus ass, I agree. Not a man I would do business with. But that doesn't mean he produces bad frogs. We have no proof he is cross breeding. Just that he is line breeding just like Stewart. Of course, due to the attack by forum members, we will never know if he does. He tried to join the community and do the right thing and was chased off to do as he wished.

Personally, I worry more about a member that imports frogs. I would not put it past him to cross frogs and call it a new locale import. And I suspect he has, but have no proof.