Dart Den

Scott, I do not disagree with MUCH of what you say- a lot of the Wascher stuff. but I'll add a few quick bullet points:

Keeping frogs in glass boxes isn't playing God, but choosing to line breed / cross is IMHO

That Florida hobbyist with the 12 tincs in the 36 gallon bowfront was a complete FAIL. The enclosure was too small and poorly designed and the fact that other hobbyists must now 'clean up his mess' is unconscionable and close to criminal. That enclosure could be a snapshot of 'what not to do' for frogs. Jelly's first vivarium was the EXACT same way - horrible. Pics and thread are still here on DD. His new viv and attitude is much better and I have NO problem if he wants to keep a mixed tank in his house.

Now breeding and mailing /shipping hybrids across the country, I'm totally against. See above.

I've met and talked to at least 300 different hobbyists over the years and I've never had a discussion or reason to think that they would rather have a hybrid frog, in fact, I'd be willing to bet that they would WANT an imported animal over a questionable one - what does that tell you ? Hybrids = MORE imports.

I totally agree and do not support the selling of hybrids either. Jelly had tough skin and stuck around. I believe he learned alot from the forums, and from his own mistakes.

The problem I have is the bullshit that transpired above will insure these frogs do not go to a member of the forums and will probably go to someone new. Hope that person doesn't sell offspring.
Rick and Dillon have some wild ideas. But I have seen alot of new people that want to mix and through conversation change their mind.
That won't happen now that they were chased away will it???

Several years ago I pushed for a discussion on mixing and it finally took place. That discussion was needed. Just telling people they can't mix didn't do shit, and alot of losses I am sure happened.
A discussion of why not to mix changes minds. Just saying no leads to screw you they are my frogs.

Chasing these people off the forums does more harm.

Linebreed like Sky Blue and Lemon Drop????

Not giving Sean Stew a TOTAL pass on this, but the guy has paid his dues and done a LOT for the good of the hobby.

There's a big difference between S.S and 'brand spankin' new' Dillon W. and Dad.

And given time with proper guidance from the community, maybe Dillon would too. Maybe conversations could of taken place to help him decide to start small and grow from there.

But no, the community ran him off, now he will do whatever he wants. And make no mistake, flippers are about making a buck. They will buy cheap frogs.

It is too late now to stop DFW. Maybe everyone will learn from this before chasing off the next one.

The community is it's own worst enemy in these cases.

That is my point

scott_r Wrote:And given time with proper guidance from the community, maybe Dillon would too. Maybe conversations could of taken place to help him decide to start small and grow from there.

But no, the community ran him off, now he will do whatever he wants...

I'm pretty sure he's going to do whatever Ricky wants. Dillon is an adult, but hasn't said 1 word on any of these issues. I don't think he's allowed to voice his own opinions or thoughts in Rickys house. Let's be honest. How much of DFW do you think is actually 'Dillon'?

Is DFW "Dillon's Frog Warehouse" or "Dick's Frog Warehouse"?

Why would he say one word? I would of said screw you all way before he did. It doesn't matter what age a person is or what the name of the company is. When Dillon was chased off, His dad stepped in to try to have a discussion, once again, chased off. So, they said screw you. So, now we stand the chance of more hybrids hitting the shows and being sold.

We found out telling people No, you can't mix didn't work. By telling them what was required to set up a mixed tank and the dangers of a mixed tank, they usually realize it is to much work and don't do it.

Good discussion, glad we can all agree to disagree without it turning ugly. IMHO, the guys from DFW did not want to listen to the advice given to them, they had a "Business Plan" and were going to run with it no matter what advice the hobby provided them. I see the same threads over and over "why can't I mix", advice is given, but in the end, I think so many of the beginners really believe they can make it work, and when they get tired of taking care of their frogs, the hobby is left to clean up their mess. I agree with Phil, if we don't keep pushing the "Do Not Mix" agenda, hybrids will become mainstream and those who want original local or a close representation of a morph as it is in the wild, will only lead to more imports.

Pushing the agenda is fine. Replying thou can't mix because we say so is not. That turns them away faster

JayMillz Wrote:

scott_r Wrote:And given time with proper guidance from the community, maybe Dillon would too. Maybe conversations could of taken place to help him decide to start small and grow from there.

But no, the community ran him off, now he will do whatever he wants...

I'm pretty sure he's going to do whatever Ricky wants. Dillon is an adult, but hasn't said 1 word on any of these issues. I don't think he's allowed to voice his own opinions or thoughts in Rickys house. Let's be honest. How much of DFW do you think is actually 'Dillon'?

Is DFW "Dillon's Frog Warehouse" or "Dick's Frog Warehouse"?

I have a bit of insight on this as I've met the Waschers and had them over to my house when I lived in Illinois.
When communicating on the forums it appeared to me that Dillon was the one using the boards. However in person it was all Rick. Both at Frog Day 2012 and at my home Rick was the one doing all the talking. It may have started out as a father and son hobby but I think it's grown into something else entirely.
Dillon is a slight young man. Quiet, intelligent, bookwormish, and with seemingly not much in the way of social skills. I can't help but think of the many news stories about shooting rampages when they always say the gunman was "quiet and he kept to himself"

Rick is clearly book smart though he may take things quite literally without being able to apply information and data in a practical application in the real world. Rick may have a bit of the Napoleonic Complex psyche.

My statements are in no way scientific nor are they meant to be insulting. Just my own personal observations as I'm one of the few people in the hobby who have actually met the Waschers.

scott_r Wrote:Pushing the agenda is fine. Replying hou can't mix becsuse we say so is not. That turns them away faster

Let us not forget the person in discussion has been a member of the forums from 2008. They knew all too well what folks reactions would be. This is not a noob looking for advice, this is someone looking for 350.00 from whoever has the cash.

I can see coming to the defense of a noob asking questions but this is something totally different.

Can anyone honestly say that someone that has been on the forums from 2008 didn't expect the reaction they got?

Also remember that DFW 1st plan was a totally different clientele than the hobby. They only became defensive when the online hobby had seen through their BS and called them out on it.

Why don't we just make it illegal.

frogfarm Wrote:Why don't we just make it illegal.

I just just call it stupid to expect a different reaction when it is quite apparent what the reaction will be.

This person was saying they were getting bashed back in 2009. So...

When will people stop condemning, harassing, whatever for victimless crimes? I fail to see how having hybrids for sale affects you if you don't buy them. Why can there NOT be hybrids out there. Just because there is a possibility one will get mixed in doesn't mean you can harass someone. If you want "wild type" frogs or line bred frogs or hybrids, why can't another exist? Get animals that are only from tracked lineage. I fail to see why people can't do things because it may "mess things up for someone else". You think Cobalts aren't mixed? Which cobalts, right? Exactly. You think auratus aren't mixed? You think leucs aren't mixed locals? bicolors? There pets adapting to a new environment, they aren't going to be "wild type" without the factors that select. You may be able to keep disease resistance in some, but which if the disease doesn't come thru to cull the ones who aren't. Any "restrictions" you place on the requirements for your pets just keeps people going back to the wild for the perception of substandardness. The frogs aren't going anywhere but our tanks I see no reason to select for anything other than fitness for the habitation that exists. For it to react like nature the culling will happen according to the new conditions anyway. Just my personal opinion, sorry if it offends anyone.

If it "may mess things up for someone else" that's not a victimless crime now is it.

Yes, it's victimless because you have no right to "pure frogs" or whatever it is you may want. You are "messing it up" for people trying to do what they want right now? So what your doing certainly isn't victimless either then.

It's not a crime and these are just opinions. No offense taken. I just find it amusing that they expected a different reaction to their for sale add.

I see it like this; One can clearly see there is a big pile of crap on the floor. Even with the knowledge that crap stinks, they still step in it and then they start getting mad when people say they smell like shit.

Maybe here but the most pages ever for any thread in any topic is a thread against the waschers. That's not opinion, that has turned into harassment. There may be no "law" but it's strait up bullying. Other than Donn legitimately addressing interpretations. Comments on their psyche, jobs, religion, etc. is harassment. And to a point well after stating your opinion, so is hybrids. A hate crime so to speak, esp when you recommend euthanizing healthy animals. Your really squashing experimentation while never experiencing it yourself to back up these are less healthy individuals.

People wanting to create hybryds couldn't continue to do so without people keeping pure frogs for them to acquire to crossbreed and make what they want. So actually we aren't messing anything up for them at all. However people making hybryds have made it necessary to be a lot more carefull when buying frogs. Once hybryds get out there and unknowingly mixed it can't be undone which can't be said about pure frogs

You think Cobalts aren't mixed? Which cobalts, right? Exactly. You think auratus aren't mixed? You think leucs aren't mixed locals? bicolors?

As many have said, track your frogs if your worried about hybrids. So there is a way for both to exist. You'd just rather harass people