Dart Den

frogfarm Wrote:Maybe here but the most pages ever for any thread in any topic is a thread against the waschers. That's not opinion, that has turned into harassment. There may be no "law" but it's strait up bullying. Other than Donn legitimately addressing interpretations. Comments on their psyche, jobs, religion, etc. is harassment. And to a point well after stating your opinion, so is hybrids. A hate crime so to speak, esp when you recommend euthanizing healthy animals. Your really squashing experimentation while never experiencing it yourself to back up these are less healthy individuals.

Please show me and everyone where I bashed them well after I stated my opinion over there because I did nothing like that.

I will speak euthanasia every time I see a "for sale" add for hybrids. A "for sale" add will not always find someone willing to care for them for their full life. I know very few people who will show that dedication. A for sale add shows me nothing but an attempt to make this hobby like the python hobby.

I would take in hybrids and not kill them but they would never leave my house. Matter of fact I have an auratus that I don't know what it is, he will forever be alone and he will not leave his viv until he passes of old age. If something changes in my life and I have to get rid of my frogs and I don't have someone I personally know and trust to keep them till death they would be put down.

Show me where I said it was you. I didn't say it was anyone. I said AT A POINT it becomes harassment.

That's your view and I respect that you can have it. I far from agree but I'm not going to start a thread 150 pages long about it. Wouldn't it be terrible if someone started a 150 page rant on your thought of euthanasia if it was your business?

I dunno about calling it a 'rant' but we certainly can have a thread on peoples view/opinions on hobby frog euthanasia here, in fact I'm sure theres is a least 2 such threads...now whether they are to be perceived as 'caustic' inflammatory or 'rough'...that's in the eye of the beholder.

frogfarm Wrote:Show me where I said it was you. I didn't say it was anyone. I said AT A POINT it becomes harassment.

That's your view and I respect that you can have it. I far from agree but I'm not going to start a thread 150 pages long about it. Wouldn't it be terrible if someone started a 150 page rant on your thought of euthanasia if it was your business?

If one publicly mixes beliefs with business it will open doors (rants) one might not want open.

Be it justified or not.

Casper is correct, it is a slippery slope and once mixing is viewed as an acceptable practice, it will take years to try and reverse it. Are all the lines pure, hell I don't know for sure, but 90% of the hobby can I.D a cobalt as we know it. Mix a cobalt with a regina and it becomes something else further from the identifiable morph the hobby acknowledges. Hope that made sense.

Basically, you either aim as high as possible for the hobby, or you don't. It is usually abundantly clear who is opting out for the latter.
No, it is not right for Stew to get a pass on sky blue, lemon drop, or any other extreme line breeding. And I have not given him a pass . Others may because somehow they think he has moved this hobby forward. I don't personally get that at all.
Being a libertarian I generally don't like to bitch unless the actions effect me. These actions do however end up effecting a bunch of people in the hobby as soon as those who did not plan properly in the first place change their fickle minds and decide to contaminate the hobby many of us have no plans to leave.
Bottom line, someone always ends up cleaning up others' messes. That effects me .

...and, there are now more mixing threads than other other hOt topic in all of Dartdom . If a newb or concerned person ignorant of the facts who does not 'get ' our feelings about hybrids needs to find info it practically smacks them in the face, time and time and time again.
Easy info found abundantly . Look for the word "search" with a little bar after it .

It's almost like people MUST push and push and push and push until they get their way or someone begrudgingly says 'yes / ok' to them.

Is it a uniquely American thing to basically refuse to listen to anyone, and f*ck them if they DARE try to tell you what to do ???

I think that is one (of many) reason why this country is always poised to slip into the crapper....everyone DEMANDS to be a special little snowflake if IF YOU DARE tell them NO or 'harsh' their ideas, then you are a F'head.

Cobalt in the beginning of all these lines was either brazilian, dwarf fr g. or surinam(from whichever of the many locals). Cobalts were just lumped for many and that's where it's stayed. This little snowflake comment could be put on the not pure enough crown too. Nothing's good enough and they deserve to have pure frogs so much that no one can have hybrids in the open. As I said there is a way for both to exist but people would rather bitch and hope than register their frogs to make sure they are pure which drives hybrids underground and creates the very thing you didn't want and worked so hard against. I'm not "for" hybrids I'm just against telling someone what they can and can't do because it "may" affect me. That's a bad slope to go down.
Anyway that's just my view, you don't have to justify anything to me.

ndame88 Wrote:Casper is correct, it is a slippery slope and once mixing is viewed as an acceptable practice, it will take years to try and reverse it. Are all the lines pure, hell I don't know for sure, but 90% of the hobby can I.D a cobalt as we know it. Mix a cobalt with a regina and it becomes something else further from the identifiable morph the hobby acknowledges. Hope that made sense.

Quote:Does 350.00 make someone care?

Also, how long have you been on the forums? Can you honestly say you didn't know your for sale add wasn't going catch any flack?

I would hope so. If they were free someone like Rusty would just put them down. Am I wrong here or did I just not see a post where he tried to back door me and kill them? If they were free, wouldn't that make it easy pickings? Again Rusty is a shitty person. That's like one of you parting with your mutt dog or cat and wanting it to go to a good home and some "piece of shit" buys and kills em. Give me a break.

As I know that you read my FS post, you know about $250 worth is for the pure breeds. That would make the remaining around $8-9/frog. What is so unfair about me asking for that to raise them? That is better than most of you do just selling them off to whomever you want for a profit. Do you ask if the person you sell to knows what they are doing or have background checks done outside of your anti-hybrid cult? Again, give me a break.

Give them away for free and supply a cage for each one? Get real! I haven't said that I won't, but that is my choice just like you have yours and the price you put on the ones that you sell. I don't see you all giving away a tank with your frogs? I don't need to give them away just because they are a hybrid unless I choose to do so.

With the way you all have acted on the forum I have even thought about breeding again and creating new lines just out of sheer spite. I can do so at any time even without my hybrids or your frogs. Take that into consideration when you all feel like berating people for their choices or back dooring them. I was open and honest about my collection. I didn't need to share that with you all and you have ZERO control over this hobby outside of what you sell. Also, these forums are not even popular with most outside of the tech world and many I know/met actually like hybrids.

Maybe instead of being a bunch of jerks and driving others into a corner you can try to be real respectable humans. Wow, that's a thought.

Philsuma Wrote:It's almost like people MUST push and push and push and push until they get their way or someone begrudgingly says 'yes / ok' to them.

Is it a uniquely American thing to basically refuse to listen to anyone, and f*ck them if they DARE try to tell you what to do ???

I think that is one (of many) reason why this country is always poised to slip into the crapper....everyone DEMANDS to be a special little snowflake if IF YOU DARE tell them NO or 'harsh' their ideas, then you are a F'head.

Well, Since this is America, the country with the most freedom, Why exactly to they have to listen to you and do what you say? They are their frogs, paid for with their money to do what they wish with.

My spiritual beliefs include Karma and I personally do not agree with euthanizing healthy animals. I would not like to see them euthanized by someone else either.

I think they should be donated to a local learning institution.

I also have a Libertarian mindset and believe that we are all capable of doing what we want as consenting adults, so long as the actions do not directly or INDIRECTLY affect others.

Having these frogs foisted on us, and now threats from the 'breeder' says a lot about his character.

And you're right Scott...he can buy them, keep them all in a 5 gallon bucket and breed them together if he wants...as long as they stay in his basement (care). Outgrow them ? Tired of them ? Want to move them out of their tank so you can use it for a reef tank? Shame, shame shame.

I am not threatening anyone. I simply said how you made me feel and when you do that to others consider what you are opening up because they may feel the same way. I don't think cornering anyone will help the situation. It just makes it worse. Also, I am not using the tank for a reef. I already have a 300G for that so don't make assumptions there.

You don't think your actions are DIRECTLY affecting someone else's by denegrating him online? I don't think you really have a libertarian mindset or you just can't see that your actions are affecting others when they only affect you by having to "register" your frogs or buy from people who don't buy shady frogs. He's not doing anything to you by accurately representing his frogs and trying to sell them. It's only a percieved affect because you want everyone to bend to your will because you want what you want.

Philsuma Wrote:My spiritual beliefs include Karma and I personally do not agree with euthanizing healthy animals. I would not like to see them euthanized by someone else either.

I think they should be donated to a local learning institution.

I also have a Libertarian mindset and believe that we are all capable of doing what we want as consenting adults, so long as the actions do not directly or INDIRECTLY affect others.

Having these frogs foisted on us, and now threats from the 'breeder' says a lot about his character.

And you're right Scott...he can buy them, keep them all in a 5 gallon bucket and breed them together if he wants...as long as they stay in his basement (care). Outgrow them ? Tired of them ? Want to move them out of their tank so you can use it for a reef tank? Shame, shame shame.

Yes Yes Aaron....you ALL will bow and kneel and attend to my every printed word. I have vast INTERWEB power!!!

Dude, this is a FORUM....look up the definition. He GETS to say HIS piece...and I GET to say mine.Pretty basic stuff.

And I get to say mine. Make fun if you like but your driving away anyone who has anything to do with hybrids. Your sayin Jelly "came around". You project an exclusionary mindset on your website and you make fun of it when I point it out? Your saying you don't mind if people produce hybrids as long as it doesn't affect the pure frogs? You don't want everyone to follow what you say and not produce hybrid frogs?
Actually I'd classify it more as a puritan mindset as no one can do what they want because it might affect me or make me do more work. Actually hybrids may succeed in getting people to register their frogs. Again I'm not "for" them but your making a self fulfilling prophecy by not "allowing" hybrids. It drives them underground and may get them mixed in unknowingly. The only way to know is to register a breeding program. I only say this because I'm able to step back and look at it from an "outsiders" perspective. This actually follows puritan laws in our culture. There is an answer and it really doesn't affect you any more and maybe less if they are "allowed".

What 5 min. to edit a post here? Geez. From my viewpoint esp with what I'm going thru here, people would rather take more time bitching and be exclusionary rather than register their frogs and learn something from a group of animals specifically brought here as pets for people to enjoy. their never going back. They should be chosen to adapt to our tanks not to keep genes for resistance to diseases they will probably never see again to keep genetics that don't help them in our tanks. It's just cruel not to let a animal adapt to it's new environment. Sit back and look. You can't force something to be what you want it too you have to work with the interests you have or you'll end up being so exclusionary that no one will join.

Joins forums.

Learns hybrids are a hot button issue.

Gets jumped on because of hybrids.

Produces hybrids all the while seeing countless threads on hybrids turn bad.

Decides he doesn't want his hybrids.

Posts the hybrids for sale.

Expects different results than every other hybrid thread.

Makes sense to me...

People join forums, get jumped on for doing what they want not hurting anyone else, forums suffer lack of participation and wonder why, someone tells them and gets jumped on, makes sense to me.

A libertarian mindset , to me, would say they are not suitable for me buying them to breed or own but a contract between 2 other consenting adults can do what they want.
And people can have hybrids but not here is more of a separate but equal or segregationists outlook.