Dart Den

scott_r Wrote:DFW will soon be posting pictures of mixed morph hybrids on their site. Did you not tell them you forbid it?

Answer: Who cares.

Quite frankly, all the 'little kiddie' banter over on DB is silly, inane and self depreciating. The best thing to do with those idiots ( the hybrid company, not the forum) is to ignore them.

scott_r Wrote:DFW will soon be posting pictures of mixed morph hybrids on their site. Did you not tell them you forbid it?

Forbid?
Read and re-read what we write.
Never mainstream and the sky is not falling. Someone will end up on clean up duty.

Simple, and yet you continue to argue circular in this thread...

What may not be clear is that forums are also a form of very cheap entertainment.
And, picking on people who take themselves WAAAAAAAY too seriously while falling so flatly on their faces while attempting to sell us bullshit is pretty funny/entertaining stuff.
And, before anyone thinks that they don't care, check out the documentation by others as The Family changed their website hourly to cover their dumb mistakes...EXPERT , dumb mistakes. HABITUAL , expert , dumb mistakes. Funny stuff right there.

Rich, Just because that was directly after your post does not mean it was directed at you or a response to you. relax.

Yes, That thread is what I was referring to. For a member to post that he needs to back out because it is affecting his health, trying to figure out how to sue them, get restraining orders, etc is rediculous.

scott_r Wrote:Rich, Just because that was directly after your post does not mean it was directed at you or a response to you. relax.

Yes, That thread is what I was referring to. For a member to post that he needs to back out because it is affecting his health, trying to figure out how to sue them, get restraining orders, etc is rediculous.

Who were you implying was forbidding anything ? I made a point to use the word we . It is Sunday, I am plenty relaxed, thanks.
Any and all bad publicity aimed at The Family which is digested by the newest of newbs or old timer is a good thing. And please don't think that all this hobby forum bad press does not bother them. It does. You would be hard pressed to find a teen just lovin being ragged on...
Now, is that DB thread ridiculous along with a bunch of other DB threads in the T-dome or other-wise? You betcha. Have many of us here agreed with that point? Yup. Your repetitive mention of the fact is a waste of time and energy, just like the DB thread.
On a side note, I find it hypocritical that a number of mods there choose to exercise certain rules against personal attacks on some and not ALL, but that has been going on for a long, long time and it will not change. Thank god for the couple good ones left over there. I don't know how they hang on.
Some of are perfectly happy with simply exchanging relevant information revolving around our hobby. It is not always our goal to change the hobby overnight.

ok...I see where we just got mistakenly into the wrong thread here....this thread is the 'general' hybrid yada yada thread.

The Safe frog, Art Frog, USA frog, Dillion frog, Rick Washcer thread is here:

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=8102&start=120

please keep these 2 threads separate and distinct.

Philsuma Wrote:Why does that 'Tom Carolla' Mod keep locking the thread over there ? What is the offending verbiage being used ?

It was my fault. I didn't mean to piss Tom off. I'm on a couple of other non-animal forums and pictures/videos get linked all the time. I linked a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5xJrw_h5Nk) at the end of my post, saying that if Rick is so confident that his frogs are safe, that he should skip the boring science stuff and just do what this guy does to stand out from the competition. I apologized to Tom, I didn't think posting a video was a big deal but it must have been a problem over there in the past or something because he said it's not allowed. Sorry y'all.

JayMillz Wrote:

Philsuma Wrote:Why does that 'Tom Carolla' Mod keep locking the thread over there ? What is the offending verbiage being used ?

It was my fault. I didn't mean to piss Tom off. I'm on a couple of other non-animal forums and pictures/videos get linked all the time. I linked a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5xJrw_h5Nk) at the end of my post, saying that if Rick is so confident that his frogs are safe, that he should skip the boring science stuff and just do what this guy does to stand out from the competition. I apologized to Tom, I didn't think posting a video was a big deal but it must have been a problem over there in the past or something because he said it's not allowed. Sorry y'all.

Tom's a good guy. We've talked in PMs over the years, and interacted on the forums. And even if we didn't always agree or exactly see eye to eye I've always found him to be reasonable, and one of the "good guys".

Anyways just throwing that out there.

As for the thread....

As long as it is you can't expect people to not show up in the middle and post pics/vids or make comments like people made ,no matter how many warnings you issue. Many many people are not going to go back and read enough to get caught up and see those warnings once they fall off the last page.

You gotta either give people some leeway and/or resign yourself to actively modding it because it is worth it for the good of the community... Or choose to close it. They finally chose to close it indefinitely, which I don't really agree with but I do understand it.

My hope is they will at least open it back up periodically to keep awareness going about these people. Maybe open it 3 days a month or something, or at least when some new piece of info or an incident comes to light that is relevant to the thread, and the community.

scott_r Wrote:For a member to post that he needs to back out because it is affecting his health, trying to figure out how to sue them, get restraining orders, etc is rediculous.

Hey, I think that was me 8)

lol !!

Just like the ole days Phil... :twisted:

Indeed John...don't be a stranger now.

PLEASE NOTE: I am on the side of not wanting to hybridize. So maybe someone can explain to this newbie, in terms that are understandable, which of these frogs could hybridize. Since i've been a fishkeeper for many years (okay fine, decades) then perhaps if I put it in terms I understand then someone can explain to me in terms that relate to dart frogs. Okay? So here we go.

Everyone knows what a freshwater angelfish is. Their short scientific name is Pterophyllum scalare, which is of the cichlidae family. Now we have a discus, King of the Aquarium some call them. They are also of the family cichlidae. Both of these particular fish come in many, many colors, patterns and in the angels, finnage (such as veils). They are often linebred specifically for these traits. I personally have angelfish specifically bred from the Philippine Blue Gene (Ken Kennedy & Neil Oyama's lines) and they are absolutely stunning. So I know that if I put a let's say regular silver angelfish I got at PetSmart hock: (I wouldn't but let's just say I did, PetSmart has sickly fish overall.) But if I put them together they would breed. Nobody anywhere would have a problem with it. Well Ken and Neil might feel ill but...

Discus as well, many colors and patterns. Some specific lines very sought after and quite expensive. Again you could throw any two opposite sex discus in a tank and they would breed. Right?

However, if I put a discus and an angelfish together in an aquarium they would not (could not) crossbreed, even though both are of the same family -- cichlidae.

Now I get lost in the taxonomy trees on frogs:
Family: Dendrobatidae (183 sp.)
Subfamily: Colostethinae (67 sp.)
Subfamily: Dendrobatinae (55 sp.)
Subfamily: Hyloxalinae (59 sp.)
From http://research.amnh.org/vz/herpetology/.../index.php

Now is where I get really confused. If we go to: http://amphibiaweb.org/lists/Dendrobatidae.shtml
Subfamily Dendrobatinae (42 species)
In these subfamilies we find: Genus Dendrobates (5 species) [subfamily Dendrobatinae]
Dendrobates auratus
Dendrobates leucomelas
Dendrobates nubeculosus
Dendrobates tinctorius
Dendrobates truncatus

Then we have the Genus Oophaga (9 species) [subfamily Dendrobatinae]
Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei

And of course there are other subfamilies as well, you all know them much better than I but there are two examples anyway (like my angelfish and discus). It would follow then that if I got Dendrobates auratus and Dendrobates leucom they could crossbreed, right? Now, if I got a tinctorius and a pumilio then would they (could they?) crossbreed? Or would they be like my fish? It's really confusing to have a subfamily with the same scientific name as the family.

Okay, now my head really hurts! Sorting through this is so confusing :? Does this make sense to someone? Anyone?

They must be in the same family to be able to hybridize....Tinctorius X Leucomelas or pumilio X vicentei possible. I think that's how it goes.

Dendrobates X other Dendrobates can cross. auratus X leucomelas = yes

EASY fix....is to keep same species enclosures only. This is also what we recommend for new people anyway.

Philsuma Wrote:...

EASY fix....is to keep same species enclosures only...

Harder, but a much better fix is to keep same locale and species only enclosures.

Philsuma Wrote:They must be in the same family to be able to hybridize....Tinctorius X Leucomelas or pumilio X vicentei possible. I think that's how it goes.

Dendrobates X other Dendrobates can cross. auratus X leucomelas = yes

EASY fix....is to keep same species enclosures only. This is also what we recommend for new people anyway.

In the vast majority of animals, they must be at least in the same genus to hybridize. In many Dendrobatid genera, compatibility is even more specific than that. I think all species in the genus Dendrobates can cross, but this is not the case in Ameerega (Ex. bassleri cannot cross with altamazonica but I would assume that they can with pepper). I also don't think all Ranitomeya or Oophaga can hybridize (Ex. I don't think the reticulata (fantastica) clade can cross with the ventrimaculata or vanzolinii clades). This is likely the result of female mate choice based on call differences.

If you are comparing the frog hobby to the fish hobby I'd use the African Rift Valley as more of an analog. There you have many varieties of the same species based on locale, and the technical keepers of those species are very careful in tracking locales, and not crossing morphs. For example, look at A. compressiceps:

• Altolamprologus compressiceps Cape Nangu ''Black''
  
• Altolamprologus compressiceps Chaitika ''Red''
  
• Altolamprologus compressiceps Chituta ''Red Fin''
  
• Altolamprologus compressiceps Kambwimba ''Yellow''
  
• Altolamprologus compressiceps Muzi ''Gold Head''
  
• Altolamprologus compressiceps Mwela ''Orange''

In this case you would never see a hobbyist mix a Cape Nangu with a Muzi gold head. Maintaining the locale and lineage is critical. None of these animals are mixed, where as the examples previously cited (angelfish and discus) were already line bred for specific traits. In general the rift valley portion of the fish hobby is more likely to maintain species / locale specific tanks (though you do see "male only" peacock tanks regularly). That said, for me, there's nothing quite like a 6 ft tank full of C frontosa of a specific locale. For some, pulling from the "mixed malawian" tank at Petsmart is ok for most keepers, but there will be a niche in the hobby that would want a verified L caeruleus and not one that just looks like one.

You raise an interesting point though on the fragmentation of the fish hobby and if that fragmentation is likely to occur (or already has to some extent occurred) in the dart hobby. There will likely be a core group of enthusiasts that maintain the lines, with another likely larger group that want a few different "colorful frogs" in a tank with little concern for the details. Perhaps this is a jaded view and the frog hobby will not progress down the path like the fish hobby where convenient food sources are more readily accessible lowering barriers to entry. In my limited experience most people that come by and visit my house are very enthusiastic about setting up a viv until they find out what the frogs eat :lol:. I think that slows adoption, self selecting for people that do more research and end up following established keeping practices.

Then again, I could be completely off base . Interesting comparison on two hobbies in different stages of maturity and adoption.

Excellent points and very good example by using the Rift Lakes, I used to keep and breed lamprologus similis, named for their similarity to the lamprologus multifasciatus. And you are correct, we would never have dreamed of mixing the multifasciatus with the similis, they would cross and hybridize. If someone on a forum even mentioned in passing putting a gold ocellatus in with a black ocellatus the topic would get as hot as they do here when there is talk of mixing PDFs. There also were species that would not crossbreed, although they might fight.

I think the biggest ruckus I have seen in the fish industry is the "creation," for lack of a better word, of the Flowerhorns. People still yet today become incensed over the issue.

One does wonder what is down the road for PDFs.... I think if it were a bit more understandable to newbies perhaps there would be success. It is complex and hard to understand and just saying "keep them separate" is like telling a teenager to not do something -- the sure bet then is they will do it just on that basis, you know, forbidden fruit and all that.

partsgal Wrote:...just saying "keep them separate" is like telling a teenager to not do something -- the sure bet then is they will do it just on that basis, you know, forbidden fruit and all that.

I estimate that "mixing" threads number right up there in the top five most asked/ most discussed topics in the hobby today.
There have to be many, many hundreds of threads all over the interweb explaining in very well thought out detail and logic the possible downfalls and lack of benefit to the frogs or hobby by mixing locales and species.
So, the 'excuse' of mixing due to 'spite' falls rather flat.

Rich, the point, as Phil said when creating this discussion initially, is to put the facts out there. Absolute facts to substantiate. Valid reasons as to why. I've searched many, many forums, articles and utilized Google search for literally weeks trying to find this answer. There are some decent articles out there that lightly touch on the subject. Forum discussions, I grant you, are many. However, any potentially valuable information is often buried in 15+ pages of some spitting match between a couple of people and to be honest I have absolutely no interest in reading all the nonsense, nor do many others. I want cold, hard facts. Not rhetoric, not "because I said so." That is not a fact-based answer that can be substantiated. People come to forums because they want information, they want correct information. And if we can show them absolutely valid reasons why then there will be a much higher success rate in getting people to not mix, to not risk hybrids or crossbreeding. And when someone like myself asks a valid, non-confrontational question and cannot receive an answer other than just do a species only setup, without telling me WHY then that is not the answer to the question I posed. Can one be directed to documentation backing up what is being said or is it merely opinion?

I very much thank the people that did their best to answer, like joneill809 did, that was a very thought provoking answer. I never did receive a full answer on that question though. Seemingly no one could point me to any specific documentation that says, factually, these two species can or cannot crossbreed. I understand this, I have dealt with fish on the IUCN Red List and for a time was involved in CARES Preservation Program. So I "get it." But obviously others are not. Is there a group, like CARES, for the dart frogs? If preservation is part of the ultimate goal then surely there is one somewhere? It appears GEF does some work in this area, I'm looking a little more deeply into that.

On a personal level I think part of the thing is that a lot of the people that have been in this hobby for years are of a different mindset than just your average person in that many of you are experienced keeper/breeders intent on the hobby and conservation and so on. An admirable thing. But many who come here aren't that serious, they don't necessarily want to breed, they don't necessarily think about the conservation aspect and the need for keeping the pure bloodlines. They want that pretty, flashy, colorful frog to display and that's all they care about. The more colorful the better, so of course the "designer" aspect is going to appeal to them. Perhaps that should be more the focus in the discussions of to mix or not to mix. Explain why. From my understanding some of these frogs can no longer be imported so maintaining their lines is crucial. Unless I'm wrong in that point?

We are now in the era of designer everything. Have you seen all the "designer" dogs and cats out there now? Designer fish. I guess, from some of the things I've read, designer reptiles is a problem? If these frogs can hybridize then how do you protect the hobby from designer frogs? You need better talking points... :wink: